Curse

Elrodien · Jan 26, 2007, 02:14 PM // 14:14

I'm working on a gvg build that uses two mesmers two dervishes(or warriors - havent decided yet) two monks and a flag runner but I can't decide on the last persons role. The build is based on an old fashioned E-Surge build with e-denial the main thrust of the build. With all the pressure builds running at the moment it would be wise to put someone here who can absorb or shut down pressure but what type of character would suit this role best? I don't know if I should have a warder, an anti-melee caster or even a third monk...should I just throw caution to the wind and have an assassin there instead and have him npc killing?

What about a paragon?

Any advice oh great and wonderous ones?

Yichi · Jan 26, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

if youre going to run a paragon in the slot, run him more offensive. paragons can apply amazing pressure. also maybe a ranger with apply poison, burning arrow for a little more extra pressure/split ability if needed.

Burton2000 · Jan 26, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Yeah i would definatly go with a burning arrow ranger. They can spread conditions,join in spike,split and interupt stuff. A very versatile character.

Elrodien · Jan 26, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

hmm, you might just be right - its a role I play in my guilds current setup and I love playing the Burning ranger. His versality and durability are fantastic (based on the old style Cripshot ranger if anyone noticed - another favourite char of mine).

I'll construct the build and give it a try - cheers

mazter · Jan 26, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

i think the build lacks some defece..i dont know the skills of the chars but my opinion is to put an ele with wards and some blinding surge

Ganks · Jan 26, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Hmm. You could put in an ether ele with some condition and hex removal um windbourne speed maybe a couple defensive skills. That or some kind of support class is what I would guess with. You could throw in an assassin but unless you pair them up sins are gonna go down kinda fast. Its up to you to decide if thats worth it or not. a busrge ele throwing around blind and weakness wouldnt be too bad. Im not sold on the wards since they dont last long, could be wrong there, but maybe just the kinetic aura combo for self reliance.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 26, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

ele with draw, blind, and glyph sac+rez chant is always win.

Morganas · Jan 26, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Run a support ele with wards, obsidian flame, and bsurge. That will make sure you have the spike power you need from him (even pressure builds need a good spike) and round out your defense against melee pressure, which is currently lacking.

Patrick Smit · Jan 26, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

cindition pressure can be quite nicely controlled by vengeful weapon/weapon of remedy Rt, under wielders remedy enchant. u can supplement a bit of healing and take some hex removal as well. Using channeling and seaking the heat of the battle allows u to keep casting the weapon spells. It will take of those conditions quickly and u might therefore bring divert hexes monk. I dont know how this works in 8 vs 8 but the condition removal of rt is great in 4 vs 4, plus damage is mitigated via the weaponspells that can't be removed by grents and other enchant removals. Then u only need to counter hex pressure or severe melee pressure, a nice job for monks and or Mo secondaries.

Manfred · Jan 26, 2007, 09:40 PM // 21:40

IMO, go with a character who can be both defensive and splittable. An example would be a R/Me with interrupts and blackout (remember those days? Those were good days) or an e/mo with defensive power and orb or ice snares to make him non-useless on a split.

Yue · Jan 27, 2007, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Defensive + Splittable: Cripshot/burning arrow/broad head ranger.

Patrick Smit · Jan 27, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Yue I dont see how something without healing power can do well in defense against a split. If he is a loner against a sin gank , he will not prevent deaths of npcees. The rt i described will be able to hold back a single whatever. ANd still dish out damage via the weapon spells. The attack will stall cause of stale mate. I guess the ranger supported by a primary or secondary healer will do fine, but with all the mending touch using split teams conditions do not seem the way to go. A necro secondary will also solve the problem of being dazed.

Could u elobarate on the role of this ranger in a split?

Elrodien · Jan 27, 2007, 04:18 PM // 16:18

I was thinking since the build has two wars or dervishes (still not sure on this!) and two mesmers that they should split one war or dervish and a mesmer with this other character if necessary. Surge>Burn and some degen plus the war adren spike (or the Dervishes pressure) should kill npcs quickly. I would have a more self reliant War and Mes build for the offensive split and more damage/pressure build on the flag stand guys.

The thing about taking the ranger instead of a more healing/defensive character lays all the healing on the two monks who may find themselves struggling very quickly and very exposed. The runnner is prob going to be a LoD spammer that will help but it may not be enough with the Dervish pressure builds that we see countless times in gvg.

We played a Rit character in a previous build using Weapon of Remedy and he did add considerable defense at the stand...

lol I just had a thought - a ranger with debiltating shot would work well with the e-denial...

More confused than ever now...

Seamus Finn · Jan 28, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Yue I dont see how something without healing power can do well in defense against a split. If he is a loner against a sin gank , he will not prevent deaths of npcees. The rt i described will be able to hold back a single whatever. ANd still dish out damage via the weapon spells. The attack will stall cause of stale mate. I guess the ranger supported by a primary or secondary healer will do fine, but with all the mending touch using split teams conditions do not seem the way to go. A necro secondary will also solve the problem of being dazed.

Could u elobarate on the role of this ranger in a split?

Against any solo ganker, another soloist character can certainly keep npcs from dying simply by pressuring the ganker our of teh base or killing him(remember theganker is at least fighting 2 v 1 if he's in theprocess of ganking). More specifically, rangers can play defensively against sins by spamming interupts when a sin chain starts. Get an attack and the chain/degen/deep wound are no longer there. This is not even to mention that a burning arrow ranger has at least a slight advantage over just about any other solo bar that's being run. The Rit splitter is a great split character, but I really like him best supporting other split bars that can be more offensive. He becomes a hybrid Ele/Mes/Healing/Prot/Smite Monk.

Stealth Rider · Jan 28, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Yue I dont see how something without healing power can do well in defense against a split. If he is a loner against a sin gank , he will not prevent deaths of npcees. The rt i described will be able to hold back a single whatever. ANd still dish out damage via the weapon spells. The attack will stall cause of stale mate. I guess the ranger supported by a primary or secondary healer will do fine, but with all the mending touch using split teams conditions do not seem the way to go. A necro secondary will also solve the problem of being dazed.

Could u elobarate on the role of this ranger in a split?

Interrupts, Interrupts, Interrupts. Dist shot+Savage shot>Bsurge eles, mesmers, rits, healsigs, unguents, Assasin attacks... A good Cripshot will never let an assasin kill anything, and will force a YAA into submission quite easily, as the Cripshot can overpower the YAA's condition removal. Give the cripshot Screaming Arrow and that matchup is 100% won.

Interrupts will always be the strongest things to have in a split situation, and a good Ranger will make sure nothing can kill NPCs alone.

Yue · Jan 28, 2007, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Are you kidding? Since when did healing become the only method of defense?
The problem with being dazed: Natural stride, Dodge the arrow.
Vs Assassin: If you can't deal with an assassin by yourself as a ranger, then you shouldn't be playing a ranger. Dshot one skill in assassin chain=useless assassin.
Plague touch vs mending touch: Plague touch requires you to be in touch range of the opponent, which is generally a bad idea for a ranger. Mending touch: you can use on someone else, and it provides a minor heal. Also, it removes up to two conditions. Plague touch forces you to use it twice. You also can't run away and remove poison/etc with plague.
If they send one person to gank, a ranger should be able to handle it easily. Defense=kill the gankers or force them out of your base.

Vs the mending touch gankers: dshot.

If they send multiple gankers, either send more to defend or reset your split and countergank. Just because your build is made for 6/2 or 4/4 splitting doesn't mean you have to stick with it.

Patrick Smit · Jan 28, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Ok i can see the point where the three of u are going, however a damaged npc needs healing, ok granted archers have ungent, so they will use it. distracting shot against mending touch, without daze on the target its gonna be a lucky call. distracting has a 0.5 sec activation time u need some time for the actions to be sent across the web, as well u knowing that the target is gonna use it, the flight time of the arrow needs to be included and u have some biological reaction time as well. It is therefor to my opinion impossible to effectively and reliably use d-shot as an interupt on spells less then 1 second skills. Unless your just spamming interupt skills, is that skillfull?

I do not say that a healer is the only way, and thats why i asked to elobarate on it. But whether the interupt ranger is the best way i'm not sure. Plague touch was ment for the ganking person, NPC's do nut run, are primary targets anyway and are therefore perfect targets fro dropping of any conditions. Effictively you are then killing your own NPC, you wouldn't want to do that would you? With dumping conditions on them u also give them the ability to selfheal ech four second for a decent amount, the conditions dropped are unlikely to do the same damage in that time, MT heals 30 at rank 5 for each condition removed. Poison does 8 damage per second, cripple none.

Again i do not say the ranger is a no go, thats why i asked how you would play em, but still i think there are more suitable builds around that are more likely to keep NPCees alive without any chnches of your weapons being turned against the NPCees. That u can play them effectively says something about opponents, and for sure your skill level. But it doens't mean there are no better builds. I do not play myself in GvG I have to admit that, but i observe them once in a while and i have seen many a ranger also die and being unable to hold against ganking of NPCees.

LightningHell · Jan 28, 2007, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Ok i can see the point where the three of u are going, however a damaged npc needs healing, ok granted archers have ungent, so they will use it. distracting shot against mending touch, without daze on the target its gonna be a lucky call. distracting has a 0.5 sec activation time u need some time for the actions to be sent across the web, as well u knowing that the target is gonna use it, the flight time of the arrow needs to be included and u have some biological reaction time as well. It is therefor to my opinion impossible to effectively and reliably use d-shot as an interupt on spells less then 1 second skills. Unless your just spamming interupt skills, is that skillfull?

People with really quick reflexes and a good connection can interrupt .75 skills, provided they're standing next to them.

Patrick Smit · Jan 28, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

I still don't think this is realiable, here come the math:

0.050 second to relay the action taken from the target to ranger that wants to interupt, fast reaction time is 0.16* seconds, 0.5 second skill activation. and another 0.025 seconds (halve a ping) for resolving the conflict, summed up its about 0.735 seconds, so we have 0.015 seconds flight time left.

shortest flight time possible should be around 0.2 seconds for a recurve bow with 100% boost on flight speed. say standing next to a person reduces 20 times the flight distance i think its more likely to be 10 times) then that would still be 0.01 second, we would have 0.005 seconds (5 milliseconds!!!) time for variance in any of the parameters. I don't think you can call this time space to be reliable, especially not with all the other action you are need to perform as well, look at your own health, communicate with team, move yourself, pings being variable.

1 second skills can be reliable interupted, this was before the AI chnges the golden rule, skills under 1 second were not interupted unless it was a indirect area wide interupt like that of cry of frustration. This was tested very easily near elona with all the wind riders. With all the AI updates this got forgotten and heroes and monsters seem to be able to interupt anything, totally rediculous if u ask me, unless u are spamming the skills without any consideration. I don't say they can't interupt 0.75 second skills, they will probably succeed a few times. But more often they will fail.

*http://www.exo.net/~pauld/books/car_...tiontimer.html and http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/reactiontime.shtml its not a scientific reference, but the approach and calculus looks decent enough.

Stealth Rider · Jan 28, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

I believe i mentioned somewhere as to how a good Ranger will:

1) predict the target's actions by observation of when he uses his skills/how he moves around/etc.

2) recognize the recharge times for all skills (especially prime interrupt targets such as Bflash, Mend touch, Bsurge, etc.) and use Savage/Dist accordingly, taking into account #1.

3) pressure the target into making mistakes, thus easing the interruption process.

A good ranger will *never* miss a Gale (barring it is a 1v1 and he has interrupts ready) and will catch BFLashes about 85% of the time, assuming he has LoS.

Straight reflexes are useful, and statistics/probability are as well, but experience and prediction are what seperate good Rangers from bad.